Manoy Situation Explained
I strongly disagree with the ruling made by the admins in relation to my team recieving a 0–2 forfeit after winning the series 2–0.
I would like to clear up the situation and explain my view of it.
The Ruling:
Vee’s MMR on Sheet: 2402
Manoy’s MMR: 2227
Manoy’s Rank Adjustment: Archon 5
Manoy’s Approx Adjusted MMR: 2926
source: https://dotesports.com/dota-2/news/dota-2-mmr-and-ranking-system-explained
Standin Rules:
- Any standin may be used if both captains agree or via admin discretion.
- If the missing player is below 3000 mmr, the standin may be up to 500 mmr above the missing player, with a maximum mmr of 3000. For example, if a team is missing a 1500 mmr player, they are allowed a standin up to 2000 mmr. If a team is missing a 2700 mmr player, they are allowed a standin up to 3000 mmr.
- If an admin discovers that a player used an unauthorized stand-in after the matches have been completed, the admin may retroactively award a forfeit for any games the unauthorized player played in.
From my understanding, an “unauthorized standin" is something akin to the Ultragunnar situation, where a standin was accepted, but a much higher mmr player was using the account. Another example would be where Skater stoodin for Simple. They had similar immortal numbers, but Skater’s was actually an EU immortal number whereas Simple’s was NA, and they aren’t equivalent.
I have not seen another example of a standin’s adjusted MMR in another division being taken into account. The admins have made a new interpretation of this rule.
In my opinion this is a terrible rule. I shouldn’t be expected to have encyclopedic knowledge of players adjusted MMR in every league they play in before having them standin. That’s completely unrealistic.
Second, what leagues adjustments count and what don’t? If a player is mmr adjusted in 2 leagues do we take the highest mmr adjustment or the lowest? What if they are in 3 leagues, but only mmr adjusted in 2? What is their “true mmr?
Thirdly, to my knowledge MMR adjustments aren’t always visible or obvious. I couldn’t tell you what players on the PST draft sheet have been adjusted and which haven’t. Even the “smoking gun" EST-TUES draft sheet was unintuitive, and many people misinterpreted what mmr he was actually being adjusted to.
My main point though is that rule changes like this should be announced in advance so everyone knows what to expect going forward. If I had known I needed to check Manoy’s mmr adjustments in the different leagues he plays in I would have. But that was not made aware to me. Instead I followed the rules as written, and got punished retroactively when this was changed.
Final point, even if these rules were in effect, Manoy is VERY close to being in legal range. 24 MMR. Within a single ranked game. Does that merit a 2–0 moving to an 0–2?
How it went down:
This was a last minute standin find. It’s not Vee’s fault for not giving notice, it’s on me for forgetting. But shit happens.
Since this is a last minute standin I really just need to find a warm body that is eligible to play. For myself at least it tends to be more difficult to replace a low mmr player than a mid-high mmr player. So I will take anyone that’s available.
I posted in find a player chat that I was looking for a 2.4k player. I then notice that Manoy has posted 10 minutes prior that they are available to standin. That could have been ANYONE ELSE and I would have accepted them to standin on my team. It just so happened that I had played with Manoy before.
Notice that Manoy’s message at 9:14pm was sent BEFORE I realized I needed to find a standin at 9:21pm (2 screenshots ago)
IMO this is a very important fact to determine my “guilt". If my first action was to message Manoy to standin without him or myself asking publicly that would be more sus. But Manoy was a player in the mmr range publicly saying he was available. I’m jumping at the chance. There might not be any other eligible players.
I even did my due diligence and didn’t just take his word for it, I made him send me an mmr screenshot so I knew he was below Vee’s 2402.
Relationship with Manoy
I did not know Manoy was a serial sandbagger.
I played with Manoy in PST in Season 25. I have not played with him since. Our last game together was March 2022, 15 months ago. I played in 15 officials with him, 0 pubs.
I was surprised to see him at Crusader 5. When I played with him he was a value legend player. In officials I would say he played like an ancient player.
But that was 15 months ago. I don’t know if he hasn’t been playing much dota, he’s gotten worse at the game, he’s been playing offrole, he only plays unranked, or maybe he just got super unlucky in his calibration games. Or litterally any other explanation. I don’t know.
Tell me, if you saw someone that you played with in Season 25 has since lost a badge and a half, would you label them as a sandbagger?
For example, Smashe was also on that same team. At the time Smashe was Ancient. But a couple of weeks ago Smashe was as low as Archon 2. Is Smashe sandbagging? I don’t think so. Ancient to Archon is the same drop as Legend to Crusader.
Just because I played with Manoy 15 months ago doesn’t mean I have an accurate or up to date assessment of his skill level. Especially with the rank recalibration causing some insane climbs and drops, I think it’s unfair to say that I somehow should have known he’s a sandbagger. I also haven’t interacted with him since Season 25, and I hadn’t ever seen him boast about being sandbagged in any discord channels
For what it’s worth, Smashe, who also played with Manoy in Season 25 , agrees with me that giving my team an 0–2 forfeit just for having Manoy standin is very unreasonable. He’s not some secret immortal player.
Swapping Roles
Another fact that was said to “prove" my guilt was the fact that I replaced Vee and put Manoy mid. This is ignoring the fact that:
Manoy is a mid/carry player
We have no natural mid players
We have 3 natural carry players
Vee has played mid this season
My team has also switched roles throughout the season. Let’s go through games played on each position:
Pos1: Timmy 3x, Plupo 2x, Yop 1x
Pos2: Timmy 2x, Plupo 1x, Vee 1x (Manoy 2x)
Pos3: Bibleman x6 (cringe)
Pos4: Vee x3, Plupo x1, Yop x1, Timmy x1
Pos5: Yop 4x, Plupo 2x
It’s not me coping that we switch roles as an excuse. It’s incredibly obvious to anyone who bothers to just look at our games played. In fact my entire draft strategy revolved around getting players that could make this work. Here’s a snippet from some cringe message I sent all my teammates at the start of the season:
Basically me putting Manoy mid is not indicative of me knowing he’s a sandbagger.
Value Players
We tend to ignore the fact that in every pre season drafting sheet or team review, the most used words to define players are “value", “better than their mmr", “plays above their badge". In the draft, people talk about targetting “sandbagged” players. Not necessarily people who are doing it intentionally, but maybe ex divine/immortal players who have fallen a ways due to not playing, or their best heroes falling out of meta etc..
Fact of the matter is EVERYONE is looking for the best player at any given mmr. That’s true for drafting players, standins, or permanent replacements. EVERYONE tries to get the most “rigged" standin they can find.
BUT that’s not even what happened here! I was in desperation mode just hoping I could find someone in time. I was just (un?)lucky that the crusader player saying they could standin that night happened to be Manoy. Remember Manoy posted his message before I even started to look for a standin. I wasn’t looking for a super value standin, just trying to find one at all. You aren’t typically spoiled for choice 30 mins before game time.
Crime and Punishment
Admins banning Manoy is understandable at least.
But reversing our 2–0 to an 0–2 doesn’t affect Manoy at all, it only punishes my teammates and I. Manoy is only 20% of the team, and is either 4th or 5th on the team in mmr depending on how good you think Manoy is. My team won 2 games, and to have them turned to losses for this reason is unfair.
I don’t deserve to be punished for choosing Manoy to standin either. It was not preplanned for him to standin, he was simply the first eligible player I found. For all we know he could have been the only crusader player I would have found.
My Fellow Captains
To all the other captains out there saying that this is a fair decision, put yourself in my shoes. Would you have avoided getting 2 wins taken away?
Situation:
You need a 2.4k standin 40 minutes before a game.
Someone within that range has said in find-a-player they are available
Are you able to:
Sleuth out that Manoy is a sandbagger
Discover that Manoy is adjusted to 2936 in another RD2L div
Have the foresight to see the admins will interpret the rule book in a new way that will cause you to be fucked over?
OR:
Do you reach out to the Crusader player to standin for your team?
Because if you did Option B you would be fucked over like me. This new ruling gives precedent to further forfeits due to standin selection, EVEN IF the opposing captain agreed to him.
To all captains, I suggest you either disagree with this ruling from the admins, or get started reading up on MMR adjustments across the amateur dota league community….
Summary
Manoy was a legal standin
Manoy was accepted by the opposing captain
I did not plan to try to get a “rigged standin", I messaged the first guy who said he was available
I did not know Manoy was a sandbagger
I have had no contact with Manoy since Season 25
I built my team to switch roles, Manoy going mid means less than nothing
I couldn’t have known I was breaking any rules because I didn’t. The rule was invented afterwards and applied retroactively.
If the rules are being changed that should be made clear before matches start
Expecting captains to know MMR adjustments of standins in other leagues is ridiculous
This new rule hasn’t been explained anywhere and is poorly thought out in general
I humbly request from the admin team that they reconsider their ruling, and that my teams wins are reinstated.
Thanks for reading,
Yop